The Final Solution to the Israel-Palestine Problem
Introduction
The 74-year conflict between Israelis and Palestinians cannot be resolved in an article. But the process of reconciliation and mutual recognition can start. Dialogue and debate between opposing parties and divergent groups is needed in order to mitigate deaths of innocent civilians who have been caught in the crossfire of failed politics, failed leadership, terrorism and revolving retaliation. This means finding more commonalities than differences. It also means engaging with those who support conflict and want to create further divergences between Israelis, Palestinians, Muslims, Jews and Christians. If we can get them to find common ground with each other, then the march towards peace will be unstoppable.
Over the last few years, Muslim countries such as the UAE, Bahrain, Sudan and Morocco have recognised Israel, to the dismay of many Muslim groups. I, for one, support the Muslim countries’ recognition of Israel and it is imperative that this is seen as a pathway towards peace between Abrahamic brothers, rather than treachery and betrayal, which many Muslim groups have claimed and which some extreme Jewish groups believe is anathema to the purity of their Holy Land.
What started as my responses to various anti-Israel activists on various platforms (especially after the killing of the Al Jazeera journalist, Shireen Abu Akleh), is now funneling down into a continuous dialogue with a few people who are pro-Israel and anti-Israel. Hence, this is a dynamic article, it is continuously being updated as I receive contributions from those whom I am engaged in dialogue with.
Section A — Responding to an Article in Islam 21C, which criticised the UAE’s recognition of Israel
Islam 21C is a Muslim website which publishes various articles related to politics, religion and social issues. In 2020, Lukman Harees, wrote an article for this website, entitled, ‘Has Back-Stabbing the Palestinians become the New Norm?’ Link: https://www.islam21c.com/politics/has-back-stabbing-the-palestinian-cause-become-the-new-norm. I did write a reply to this article, but it was not published in their comments section. Hence, I copy the reply below.
My Reply to Lukman Harees of Islam 21C
Assalamu Alaikum. I cannot agree with Br. Lukman Harees. Muslim countries should recognise the state of Israel. This is not backstabbing the Palestinians, it is liberating the Palestinians from misery once and for all. Peace between the descendants of Abraham (AS) must break out. For too long Palestinians have suffered because of failed leadership of HAMAS, whose strategy of protecting Palestinians is to send rockets into Israel, drive the Jews out to the sea and send suicide bombers, only for Israel to retaliate 10 times harder. Who suffers? Israeli lives that have been lost and also the Palestinian lives that have been lost through Israeli bombings, sufferings through bulldozing of Palestinian homes and the great wall around Gaza which is seen as the largest prison in the world. Palestinians have suffered too much for peace not to happen. HAMAS failed, and there were no further elections held since their victory in 2006 for the Palestinians to kick them out. HAMAS needs to use the suffering of Palestinians to advance their own politics. As more Muslim countries recognise Israel, then peace will break out and this will be a win-win for all. I long to see a day when the children of Abraham (AS) will become a superpower God willing.
With regards to the Quranic verses used. It is true that those who conceal evil intentions from the people cannot do so from Allah (God). Seeking peace with Jewish brethren in Israel which would improve the lives of Palestinians and ensure peace in the land of the prophets, is not evil. Supporting or justifying HAMAS terrorist actions against Israeli civilians, which in turn results in Israeli retaliation, is evil. The UAE did not do things in secret, they were very open in their recognition of Israel. If it is meant to refer to secret talks before the declaration, this is normal. Secret talks between adversaries that would lead to peace is normal practice. Why would this be evil?
The Quranic verse on treachery is more applicable to HAMAS, Hezbollah, their supporters and other extremist groups who misuse Islam and the Quran to inflict terror on innocent civilians in Israel. Killing innocent life is treachery by Quranic standards. This does not excuse Israel’s disproportionate retaliation against Palestinians, and there is a legitimate argument to be had about Israeli policies such as settlements, the wall around Gaza, planned annexation of land, bulldozing of Palestinian houses etc. (which many Israelis also criticise their government for). All the more reason why peace and prosperity need to break out, which can only happen by Muslim countries recognising Israel, thus leading to cooperation so that Palestinians can experience peace, security and prosperity once and for all. When I was in Dubai in 2018, I made a video responding to a Christian missionary group. In fact, Dubai was my third stop. It was a continuation from my previous videos in Mecca and Medina. In the Dubai video I stated that Muslim countries should recognise Israel and that the descendants of Abraham (AS) should cooperate, especially when the Muslim Shariah laws and Jewish Halakah laws are similar and that the religious beliefs between Jews and Muslims are the closest to each other. Not many people know that Israel has Shariah courts to cater for Israeli Muslims which comprises 20% of the population (there are Christian courts too), something that Europe and America would baulk at because of their disdain for ‘Shariah’ which in turn results from the Muslim extremists’ bastardisation of Shariah and Islam. Israel has never been recognised for this. There is more commonality in the Torah, the New Testament and the Quran than there are differences. Hence, Israel should be the confluence of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Jews, Christians and Muslims must cooperate to achieve peace once and for all.
In Dubai I made a prayer that more Muslim countries would one day recognise Israel. Two years later I hear that the UAE has made the recognition official. I don’t know whether the UAE royal family watched my video. I wish! (I’m not that important…yet). It would do well for the Prince MBS of Saudi Arabia to watch that video and even read this particular post because I make another prayer and a prediction which I hope we won’t have to wait two years for. Saudi Arabia should be the next country to recognise Israel. The Land of The Prophet at peace and cooperating with the land of the prophets… that should be the next step in the Middle East peace process. Prince MBS has made great strides to change Saudi Arabia for the better, and he should have the clout and the backing of scholars to take the next bold step of normalising relations with Israel. Anyone who does not want to see peace between the descendants of Abraham (AS) in the Holy Land are treacherous. How many more Palestinians need to die or suffer in poverty or have their houses knocked down before we realise that peace, not mutual violence, is the answer?
What do you think the prophets Abraham (AS), Isaac (AS) and Ishmael (AS) would want? Peace or violence between their grandchildren?
Section B — Response to Lama Shanti, a Pro-Palestinian commentator (Mid-May 2022)
I commented on a post by a pro-Palestinian commentator who, Lama Shanti. After the killing of the Al-Jazeera journalist, Shireen Abu Akleh, Lama posted the following comment on Linkedin,
“Trying to shut down the voice of the true. Shereen Abu Aqleh is a Palestinian Christian journalist who has just been shot in the head by Israeli apartheid soldiers while wearing her PRESS vest and covering a repeated Israeli apartheid attack on Jenin camp in Palestine.”
I responded to her in the comments box, but her comments section was switched off a few days later. However, I managed to capture my reply below.
Reply to Lama
Assalamu Alaikum/Peace. The killing of Shereen was sad, and I have been watching Al-Jazeera’s continuous coverage of the story. Such killings should not have happened. The escalation of the conflicts that took place a few months ago where Hamas fired rockets indiscriminately to kill Israeli civilians and subsequent blowback from the Israeli army (where civilians were killed as well), should not have happened either. In fact, the conflicts that had taken place since the creation of Israel in 1948 should not have happened. Too many innocent lives have been lost. Whilst Hamas and Fatah try to vie for leadership of the Palestinians, they are failing their own people. When innocent people die, everyone else must think, ‘this is it’; that there can be NO MORE LOSS OF INNOCENT LIFE. Period. Peace must break out for the sake of the next generations. There is no alternative. Either we work for peace or we support the continuation of conflict. There is no third way. Hamas could do well to follow its PLO cousins and recognise the state of Israel instead of wanting to drive the Jews out to the sea, as stated in its charter.
As more Muslim countries start to recognise Israel, they must do more to improve the welfare of Palestinians and take that responsibility away from Hamas and Fatah, who have failed the Palestinians miserably. Let these defunct groups continue to vie for leadership and squander money to buy more rockets from Iran (as Hamas has done) to target Israeli civilians; whilst the rest of the people i.e. Israelis, Palestinians, Christians, Jews, Muslims and other faiths must engage in constructive dialogue with the sole objective of bringing lasting peace. Muslim extremists in Hamas (who want to drive out Jews) and Jewish extremists in Israel (who want to drive out the Arabs and destroy Al-Aqsa Mosque) will NEVER want peace. The rest of the silent majority in Israel and Palestinian Territory (and outside) should quash these extremists once and for all and engage with each other as brothers (people have forgotten that Jews and Arabs are descendants of Abraham).
The Holy Land is holy for a reason. It is the land of the prophets. What connects Jews, Christians and Muslims are all the Jewish prophets (especially Abraham and Moses), Jesus and Mohammed. I hope that the Abrahamic Accords will do exactly what its namesake, Prophet Abraham, would have expected his descendants to do…to live in peace and brotherhood. By jettisoning the religious elements and focusing on pure politics and greed, the Holy Land is no longer holy, the conflicts will be never-ending and the prayer rituals at the Temple Mount, at Al-Aqsa Mosque and at the Holy Sepulchre will forever remain rituals rather than forming the foundations of Israel/Palestine.
Back to Shireen Abu Akleh. Both the Israeli and Palestinian authorities must hold joint investigations to identify who killed her. If it was an IDF soldier, then he should face the full force of the law in the Israeli courts. If it was an armed Palestinian protester, then he should face the full force of the law in a Palestinian court.
Section C — Replies from Various Contributors on Linkedin
Reply from Muslim commentator — Mr. S.
Ibrahim Peace be open him, was not Jewish, He was a Muslim.
Reply from Thomas M.
Maybe governments start to agree with what is called Israel but the Muslims and people don’t. How can you call someone terrorist when they defend they land against invaders? According to your analogy all Ukrainian are terrorist
Reply from Miki
I would agree with almost everything, but one little detail. There is a totally negligible minority in Israel who would even consider destruction of the Al Aqsa mosque, and even discussing it on the web will probably earn you a knock on the door from the authorities. On the other hand, there is a very substantial proportion (and hopefully, not a majority) of Arabs inside and outside Israel, who would see Israel burned to the ground and not a single attempt is done on behalf of their authorities to halt that. Only when an Arab citizen will be able to stand in the middle of an Arab street and loudly proclaim his support for peace, there will be something to talk about.
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Section D: My Response to Thomas M. (20th May 2022)
Yes, some Muslim governments are starting to recognise Israel, which is a positive thing. It is a matter of time before Muslims in general start to recognise Israel in the context of a Jewish nation that has 20% Arab citizens, and also to condemn Hamas for trying to kill Israeli civilians which in turn incites stronger retaliation from the IDF. A never-ending cycle of violence. This must stop. Peace must prevail, there is no other choice. If Israel is recognised, there will be no more bloodshed. Your Ukraine analogy is wrong. If Russia stopped the attacks and recognised Ukraine, there will be no more bloodshed.
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Section E: Dialogue with a fellow Muslim — Mr. S.
My Response to Mr. S. (20th May 2022)
Salams. Correct statement but the wrong conclusion. Abraham submitted his will to God (yes, Muslim in that sense…so are all Jewish prophets). But this does not negate the fact that he is the ancestor of the descendants of Isaac and Ishmael, i.e. Jews and Arabs. And is the spiritual father of Jews, Christians and Muslims. This should be the uniting factor between the peoples, not division. There is more that unites us than divides.
Reply from Mr. S. (20th May 2022)
Salam, I agree with you, but only on the one hand that Muslims, Christians, and Jews share an allegiance to Abraham, peace be upon him. As for religion, all the prophets have their religion Islam, only the difference between them lies in the laws they were sent with due to the different peoples who were instructed to inform them, except the Messenger Muhammad, prayer and peace be upon him. He was instructed to inform the whole nation as it is the conclusion of the messages and books that include mankind. As for the Abrahamic religion, which will include Muslims, Christians, and Jews, it is a malicious way to nullify the Islamic identity by merging it under the Abrahamic name, because Islam is clear in this regard. The Christians say three, and the Jews betrayed the covenants with all their prophets, and all of this God foretold to us in the Noble Quran.
Therefore, we as Muslims and followers of the religious book do not associate anyone with God, we share monotheism with them, and apart from that, we are among them in nothing, and the meeting, if you wish, to say for Muslims, Christians and Jews will only be if they are satisfied with God as Lord, with Islam as religion and with Muhammad, may God bless him and grant him peace, a prophet, and messenger.
My Response to Mr. S. (12th June 2022)
1) Monotheism — the decisive common platform
Salams Mr. S. Thanks for your considered reply. You said that we (Muslims) share monotheism with Jews (and Christians) and nothing else. Firstly, monotheism is the most important glue that should bind the Abrahamic faiths. This is the starting point and THE MOST IMPORTANT point which has been missed. My Jewish interlocutor (Mr. A. See below) also made the same point about monotheism being the only thing that connects Jews and Muslims, and like yourself, has minimised the importance of common monotheistic beliefs. Whilst there are variant interpretations of monotheism between the Abrahamic faiths, we pray to the same God. The Quran has this approach as well in terms of coming to common terms. This is what secular Palestinian activists have missed completely; a point I made to a well-known Palestinian activist, Dr. Ghada Karmi in 2001 when I challenged her to a debate. She did not agree with the religious approach. Politics and greed are the divisive factors and religion is the uniting factor. Secularism is one extreme, and the other extreme is extremism/fanaticism that we see in Hamas and Hezbollah who clothe themselves in religious garb but have no religious foundations.
2) Incestuous Commonalities between Judaism and Islam
There are other things that we have in common with Jews. We have Shariah, they have Halakah. Boys have to be circumcised, the method of slaughter (Dhabihah and Shechita) are similar, strict unitarian monotheism is exactly the same and the Shema/Kalima are almost identical. ALL Jewish prophets are part of Islamic belief, including the Torah and the Psalms. Muslims have Jewish names of Isaac/Ishaaq, David/Dawood, Solomon/Sulaiman, Israel/Israil, Jacob/Yakub, Joseph/Yusuf, Abraham/ Sarah/Sara, Noah/Nuh, Jonah/Yunus, Hannah, Miriam/Maryam Ibrahim etc. Jews and Muslims cannot charge interest during financial transactions, we don’t eat pork, women are dressed modestly, a third of the Quran is addressed to Jews and Christians, we have the almost same concept of the Moshiach/Masih, and during Ashura (10th Muharram in the Islamic calendar) many Muslims fast to commemorate the liberation of the Israelites from Pharaoh by Moses. The Quran and Islamic history are far more accommodating of our Jewish brothers than many Arabs/Muslims today where we see anti-Semitism (anti-Jewish racism) and a hesitancy to condemn Hamas and Hezbollah. There are many things to unite on.
3) Hypocrisy of anti-Israel activists and boycott advocates
As well as challenging extremism, we should call out the hypocrisy of anti-Israel activists who advocate the boycott of supermarkets that support Israel. I have seen Muslim brothers stand outside Tesco and encourage shoppers to boycott it as they support Israel. It is very easy to hold a boycott protest outside Tesco and then go on to shop at Lidl or Aldi. However, it is next to impossible for these very protesters to actually boycott Israel. If they are true to their word and believe that the existence of Israel is haram, then their use of email, instant messaging service, Viber, USB flash drives, computers, voice calls over the internet, Babysense (breathing detector for babies to prevent cot death), iPhone X, Waze, face recognition technology etc. are also haram because these technologies or some aspects of these technologies were invented in Israel. Are they willing to give up these technologies? If not, why not? Drip irrigation technology which optimises the usage of water for agriculture was invented in Israel in the 1950s. Muslim countries use drip irrigation technology such as, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Turkey, Iran, Algeria, Morocco, Egypt, Sudan etc. Would the anti-Israel boycott protesters urge these countries to stop using this haram technology?
4) Religion — the missing link
Israel/Palestine is the land of the prophets and where the patriarchs are buried. For too long the negotiations and discussions about territory have ended in failure because religion has been eliminated from the discourse. In the early 1990s, I recall the Madrid Peace Conference. One incident that struck me during negotiations, was that the then Israeli Prime Minister, Yitzhak Shamir, had to leave the meeting on a Friday afternoon to observe the Sabbath from that evening. The Palestinian negotiator (I think it was Saeb Erekat) criticised him for this and stated that Shamir should not have left the meeting because Friday is also a holy day for Muslims where they have to offer congregational prayers in a mosque; but that the peace conference was far more important than observing the religious rituals. This small incident made a lasting impression on me, and I immediately realised what the problem was. A political peace conference is NOT more important than observing God’s laws. Hence, I gave credit to Yitzhak Shamir for observing the Sabbath and I lost respect for the Palestinian negotiator.
Time and time again I see two extremes of Palestinian activism. Either a secular approach which has eliminated religion, or the fanatical approach represented by Hamas and similar groups that wear the mask of religion, but go against its very principles. Over a decade ago I observed a rally in Trafalgar Square London, held by the Palestine Solidarity Campaign. I was disgusted to see the Israeli flag that had a Swastika in place of the Star of David. This does not help the peace process. I then got into an argument with two pro-Palestinian activists who criticised me for saying that innocent people are not allowed to be killed in war as per Shariah rules. The female activist said that I was not an Imam for me to state this, and the male colleague tried to justify suicide bombing by giving an example of an American girl who visited Palestine and agreed that suicide bombing was a legitimate weapon. There you have it, this activist had to cite the example of the American woman because he could not justify it from the Quran and Sunnah. Secularist activism has trumped religious foundation.
Again, I observed this anti-religion phenomenon when I attended a meeting at SOAS (School of Oriental and African Studies) in London in the 2000s. The Palestinian speakers were Dr. Ghada Karmi (I mentioned her above) and Leila Khaled, who was a sexy female terrorist hijacker in the 1960s. During Q&A I stated that our religion does not allow suicide bombing nor killing of innocent civilians. I was met with laughter and derision from the predominantly Muslim and Socialist crowd. I was bewildered by this. One of the Socialist activists said that suicide bombing was a poor man’s weapon, to which he received applause and cheers from the Muslim audience. He asked me what I would do if my family were killed by warplanes; another cheer from the crowd. I thought to myself, ‘why the fuck are some of these Muslim sisters wearing the hijab, but support killing civilians? If they are meant to be following Allah’s laws, then they should do it fully and condemen terrorism, not support it.’ After the meeting, I got into discussions with a fiery Asian girl who justified killing Israeli civilians because Israel was a military state, hence, anyone including women and children were legitimate targets. There you have it, Palestinian activism par excellence. Iraq, too, was a military state under Saddam Hussain, so were its populace also legitimate targets?
In 1993, I attended a talk by Hizb-ut-Tahrir, at one of the London universities. They made some snide comments about Holocaust revisionism, to the dismay of the Jewish audience. I told the speaker, Farid Kassim, that instead of focusing on things that divide us, how about the Quranic approach which talks about the Children of Israel, and uniting on common principles? He disagreed with this approach (I cannot remember why). After the meeting, an Orthodox Jew came up to me agreed with what I said. Let’s take a step back and think this through… A Muslim khilafah-worship activist who was a big boy of Hizb-ut-Tahrir UK in the 1990s, disagreed with the Quranic approach but the Orthodox pro-Zionist Jew agreed with it. What is going on here?
So, when you state that the Abrahamic Accords is a distraction away from Islam, it is the exact opposite. Finding commonalities between the Abrahamic religions IS THE QURANIC APPROACH. I just hope the contributors to the accords make good with their agreements and unite under the umbrella of Abraham.
5) Muslims should recognise Israel
We should recognise Israel and let the Jewish nation (and 20% of its Arab Muslim and Christian citizens) live in peace, so that Palestinians may live in peace in new Palestine (including its minority of Jewish communities who will become citizens of new Palestine). Hence, no more loss of life. Why is this so hard to accept? I am glad that Bahrain, the UAE, Sudan, have recently recognised Israel. It is now time for the land of the Prophet (Saudi Arabia) to reach out to the land of the prophets (Israel) to support a permanent peace between the Abrahamic brothers in the Holy Land.
It is also ironic that there are peace activists in Israel who have condemned their own Israeli government for they way they have treated Palestinians, but they do not get arrested. What would happen if Palestinians start to protest against their own governments of Hamas and Fatah? Why was Nizar Banat murdered by Palestinian Authority security forces for merely trying to highlight its corruption? The political wrangling for leadership between the PA, Fatah and Hamas, and their oppression have let down the Palestinians big time. These groups should no longer be allowed to hijack the emotions of the Ummah, it is time for more Muslim countries to recognise Israel and to usher in peace once and for all, so that the mindless killing on both sides is stopped and Palestinians can be looked after once and for all.
6) Muslim scholars should grow some and man-up.
Muslim scholars and Imams yield great influence and clout when advising congregations and followers. I like Sheikh Yasir Qadhi for his valuable teachings, but I did not agree with him when he went off on a rant against Israel during the war in Gaza recently. It was unfortunate that Mufti Menk was heavily critcised for sitting next to and speaking with a Jewish Zionist Rabbi, Levi Duchman (Chief Rabbi of the UAE) during an iftar dinner function in the UAE recently (Al Jazeera Arabic had a picture of the two speaking to each other). Menk had to apologise in a video response that had he known about the background of the Rabbi, he would not have gone. Mufti Menk should NEVER have to apologise to anyone for speaking to a Zionist. How dare critics condemn Menk for doing what he does best, which is to promote Islam, it doesn’t matter who the recipient is. But then again, it is the secular pro-Palestinian activists who would have a problem with this. As far as religion is concerned, we know that there are no no-go areas when engaging with people from different backgrounds.
If that wasn’t enough, Sheikh Hamza Yusuf was in a spot of bother in 2020. He belongs to the organisation, The Forum for Promoting Peace in Muslim Societies (FPPMS), headed by Sheikh Abdullah bin Bayyah. The FPPMS endorsed the UAE’s recognition of Israel and said it was a wise decision, but sheikh Yusuf distanced himself from this and said he himself did not endorse this but supported the Palestinian cause. Despite this clarification, he was criticised for not resigning from the board of FPPS. Hamza Yusuf should have endorsed the peace deal because recognition of Israel will help with the Palestinian cause, which is to live peacefully and not be bombed by the IDF after being provoked by Hamas terrorists.
Muslim scholars should grow some balls, man-up and do what is right, because they are not accountable to the Palestinian Authority nor Hamas nor Muslim groups, they are accountable to the Creator. In this respect, the late Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh bin Baz, far from being a ‘government scholar’ (Hizb-ut-Tahrir’s oft quoted slogan in the 1990s), was spot on and very brave when he gave a fatwa supporting the Oslo Peace Accords in the 1990s. He realised something which many scholars did not at the time (and even today)…that peace is the only solution to the Israel/Palestine problem.
7) Palestinian activists and pro-Israel/Zionist activists must speak with each other.
The top-down approach of relying on politicians and governments to solve problems has had limited success. Palestinians and Israelis should use the bottom-up approach and start talking to each other. Some semblance dialogue or conversation have taken place but not to a level where Jews and Arabs can get closer to each other.
I watched the debate between the pro-Palestinian Israeli American activist, Miko Peled (son of an Israeli General) and the Zionist supporter, Raphi Bloom, which took place in 2019. But the debate could have been better with a genuine attempt to understand each other rather than to prove each other wrong. A more measured debate took place at the Oxford Union between Alan Dershowitz (pro-Israel) and Peter Tatchell (supporter of Boycott, Disinvestment and Sanctions movement) in 2016. But the best example I have seen of a paradigm shift between a Muslim and a Jew was during a Tony Robbins seminar on the day of the 9/11 attacks. Asad Rezzvi (Pakistani Muslim) and Bernie (an Orthodox Jew from New York) were called to the stage by Robbins. Asad’s view was that the 9/11 attacks were justified because of the Israel’s oppression of the Palestinians. Bernie had been brought up to hate Muslims. Robbin’s unorthodox psychological interventions during their discussions enabled a paradigm shift in both people that led to them understanding and respecting each other. It is worth watching that inspirational session. Link:(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9Hmr7-c5dk).
Pro-Palestinian activists must also be open to criticism and disagreement from within. I tried to engage with a pro-Palestinian activist on Linkedin, Lama Shanti, after she posted her statement about the killing of the Al Jazeerea journalist, Shireen Abu Akleh, by the ‘apartheid’ state of Israel. After my critical comments were posted on her post, as well as critical comments from others, she turned off her comments section. Likewise, I tried to engage in dialogue with the American-Palestinian anti-Israel activist, Linda Sarsour. I called her out for her incendiary remarks after the death of George Floyd and wrote a book in response to her far left Muslim/Progressive activism, entitled, ‘United States of Anger. Why Linda Sarsour’s Rage and Far Left Violence Cannot Move Mountains’ (available on Amazon). Unsurprisingly, there was no answer.
There must be discussions and dialogue at ground level between Israelis and Palestinians (and Muslims, Christians, Jews etc.) based on common Abrahamic values as a starting point. It is time for ordinary people to lead politicians, policy makers and activists, not the other way round.
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C) Dialogue with an Israeli Jew — Mr. A.
Reply from Mr. A. to my original post
Arabs are descendants of Abram not Abraham, he got another letter, another name after the circumcision, not the same guy, not the same level, another dimension…
So we are far away from being brothers…
“Prophet Abraham, would have expected his descendants to do” (quoting me)
How can you be so sure about it? According to the bible, Abraham said to Ismail to go away because he did not understand he was under Isaac. Only after Abraham’s death, Ismail will come back in history, only, in the end, they will understand they will be in the 2nd place…
My Response to Mr. A. (Israeli Jew) — 20th May 2022
Shalom. Wrong on both counts.
1) Yes, according to the Torah in Gen. 17, Abram became Abraham after circumcision. He was still the same person even though his status changed. Verse 23 states clearly that he and Ishmael were BOTH circumcised on the same day and the rest of the males. The nation of Isaac and the nation of Ishmael (males) are circumcised to this day. They are not far away from being brothers but closer.
2) Ishmael and Arabs are not in second place compared to Isaac and his Jewish descendants. Gen 17 is clear that Abraham did not send Hagar and Ishmael to the desert from his own will, he was obeying G-d’s commands. G-d did not send Ishmael away because he refused to be under Isaac, HaShem had planned a destiny for his descendants as promised in Gen 17:20. The fact that both Ishmael and Isaac buried their father shows they were united. Moreover, Isaac’s son, Esau married Mahalath (or Basemath depending on Gen 26 and 36) as his 3rd wife, she was the daughter of Ishmael. Unity in action. There is no second place here for Ishmael. Only Muslim and Jewish extremists will see each other as enemies and not brothers, thus going against the principles of Isaac, Ishmael and Abraham.
Reply from Mr. A. (20th May 2022)
“He was still the same person” (quoting me)
He is not the same. Before the circumcision he can speak with G-d. But after the circumcision he can meet him, this is more important, more valuable. G-d is more difficult with him after the circumcision, of course with the exam with Isaac because he wanted to share the land.
Another point, Ishmael is born before the circumcision of Abraham, so he is born with someone not “complete”, I don’t need to explain that someone with circumcision is better than someone without, so Ishmael under Isaac. Not less but under or after for the G-d’s project.
There are lot of dimension to explain but in mp [I don’t know what Refael means by this] it is better I feel.
“The nation of Isaac and the nation of Ishmael are circumcised to this day” (quoting me)
No, Jews do it during the day 8 after the birthday, and Arabs/Ishmael descendants do it later.
Why the day 8? 8 is after 7, after something natural, after the seven days of the creation, after the 7 points you need in 3D to define something. There is no idea beyond doing it after the day 8.
Hagar and Ishmael were thinking they would be the chosen people, and get more heritage, in materiality and in spirituality, from Abraham. How can you see that? Abraham speak about Hagar like his wife. I have no more place here..But Sarah knew the truth and G-d pushed Abraham to tell to continue Hagar and Ishmael path away from Abraham. Why? To not confuse anybody about the role of each one. Hagar and Ishmael were there to participate to the divine project, now they cannot continue to be part of it.
Why? I explained it before, heritage.
“They were united” (quoting me)
Yes, because you can see in the Bible exactly there where you quote that Isaac is first and after Ishmael because he understood he is the second. And you cannot rely only on Abraham.
G-d decisions are the best, so the best for us is to separate the way with people that think they are in the first place and forced other to do what they feel and trust. Proselyte is something Abraham did but without force, if someone is interested he will speak with him but Islam is forcing…
“Prophet Abraham would have expected his descendants to do…to live in peace and brotherhood” (quoting me)
Of course, Israel, Jews, did not begin any war in purpose to kill or destroy any country.
Secondly, G-d’s project is clear enough, Arabs are not the good path, so Isaac was chosen…and Israel people after…
“The Holy land is no longer holy” (quoting me)
Speak for yourself, the Holy land cannot be changed.
“the prayer at the Temple Mount” (quoting me)
Jews are not allowed to pray on the Temple Mount but let me laughing when people are saying Israel is an apartheid state…
“Palestinian court” (quoting me)
Very funny. I see you didn’t spend an hour on the subject. There is no structure, no nation, nothing logical built in this territory…
Arabs are not descendants of Abraham. They are descendants of Abram, not the same guy…
So we are brothers like the fish and the elephant. I meant the only big thing that give something to share is to believe in one G-d.
Lol I want to say. You are asking the Palestinian authority to do something that can kill us? There are 2 cases possible. Israel killed her (Shireen Aby Akleh) or Palestine killed her. The Palestinians did not want to take the risk…Abu Mazen is losing control so he cannot allow it…
Don’t worry, only strangers to Israel cannot understand the views of Israeli Arabs, we heard their opinions last year, May 2021, with all the riots in some cities. We saw how the majority is quiet and the extremists take everyday the power. This is not the case in Israel. At the beginning, the army was not united, and lot of Israelis died just to not let the extremists leading the country (the country was not yet, I don’t have any words right know to consider everyone in this story). We did it, they can do it. This is just enough for them, enough important, so they let it like that… passively… And the extremists doesn’t think far away from the Hamas… (Note from Hasan: I did not understand what Rafael said in this paragraph, so I have sought clarification from him).
Something I forgot, you are using the fact Esau get married with the daughter of Ishmael to prove that G-d chose them? That they are united? That Ishmael is not in second place.
Yes Christians (=Esau) and Muslims(=Ishmael) were united against Isaac and Jacob.
So clear how Ishmael can be the center G-d if we don’t speak about him after?
Because he did not get the prophecy. And because the prophecy doesn’t come from them, to be accepted in the world, the prophet is alone and giving us the Quran. So everything on his shoulders.
So in front of a single person I have more than a million people getting the Torah, the holy message from G-d, and I should follow someone alone from the beginning?
Sorry not solid at all…
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My Response to Mr. A. (Israeli Jew) — 12th June 2022
Shalom again and many thanks for your detailed responses. It is highly appreciated. We will not agree on everything straight away, but at least a conversation can start, which is better than exchanging bombs and bullets. A few points you raised which I will respond to.
1) Temple Mount. Thanks for the correction. Yes, the Temple Mount is not where Jews pray as the Al-Aqsa Mosque stands there. I meant the Wailing Wall in my original post. I know that the Jewish community is waiting for the arrival of the Moshiach (may G-d hasten his arrival) who would then restore Solomon’s Temple.
2) Circumcision of Abraham — same person, different status.
You state the importance of circumcision for Isaac because he was circumcised 8 days after birth, and by that time, Abraham, was circumcised hence, complete. However, Ishmael was born before Abraham was circumcised, hence he was incomplete. Furthermore, Ishmael was circumcised at age 13. I have heard this argument before in one of Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi’s lectures (he is a Haredi-Orthodox Rabbi based in the US), that because Ishmael’s circumcision was incomplete (because he had it at age 13 and not at day 8), therefore his hold on the land of Israel would also be incomplete or temporary. Hence, Isaac is the one who is meant to hold on to the Holy Land permanently. This understanding is obviously from old Rabbinical writings, but the written Torah is more accommodating of Ishmael than the Rabbinical writings are. If Ishmael was incomplete because he was born before Abraham’s circumcision, then it stands to reason that he was complete after he became circumcised at age 13 on the SAME DAY as Abraham was circumcised. If circumcision changed Abraham, then it also changed Ishmael. Furthermore, Abraham was the same person but had a higher status after circumcision. Yes, I agree, his status changed, and we believe he was a great prophet of G-d and a guide for Mankind, but he was still the same person. There is nothing mystical about this. Sarah was married to the same person (Abram/Abraham) before and after circumcision. Likewise, Abraham’s second wife, Hagar, was married to the same person before and after circumcision. He was the same person but had an elevated higher status after circumcision. Same with Moses. His wife, Zipporah, was married to the same man before and after Moses became a prophet, after speaking to G-d through a burning bush.
Your initial reply to me about the Abraham being a different person after circumcision and being a wholly new dimension may be what some of the earlier Rabbis have said but there is a counter view within Jewish thought. One of the Rishonim, Tur HaArokh, stated a slightly different view about the status of Abraham after circumcision. In his commentary of Genesis 17:26 he said,
“…According to tradition Avraham observed all the commandments of the Torah, having divined G’d’s intent through his intellect. The question is therefore is why he did not observe the rite of circumcision already many years ago, seeing that he knew that this would please the Lord? Some sages answer that this tradition that attributes to Avraham the knowledge of all the commandments which would be featured in the Torah, came to him only after he had been circumcised himself. He advanced spiritually by giant steps as a result of having circumcised himself. This answer does not appear as likely, as if Avraham was intellectually mature enough at the age of three to recognise that here was a Creator who had created the entire universe, surely he had developed further intellectually in the 96 years intervening between then and the time he circumcised himself. The more likely reason is that he wanted to wait until he was commanded to do so, as we have a rule that if one performs a commandment because it had been commanded G’d, this is morally/ethically a higher ranking deed than doing the same thing without having been commanded. In the case of all other commandments Avraham knew that he would be able to perform the same commandment also after he would be commanded to do so. Removal of one’s foreskin is something irreversible, and will not be possible to repeat again. Hence in this case Avraham waited until G’d issued His command.”
So, this Rabbi of the Rishonim states very clearly that Abraham was one and the same person before and after circumcision. Your claim about being a different person in a different dimension is incorrect. However, your views would be similar to other Rabbis who said that Abraham was a different person and more advanced spiritually (Tur HaArokh mentioned other sages who held these views).
The problem with Rabbinical thought is that contradictory opinions can be held at the same time, that divergent views could be accommodated. This means that if someone has a specific bias towards or against something, he will find evidence to support his bias. So, your views about Abraham being a different person after circumcision, that Ishmael is under Isaac and Arabs are on the wrong path, will find support in some of the Rabbinical literature. But as I have highlighted in this example of Abraham’s status after circumcision, there is an opposing Rabbinical view (by Tur HaArokh) that contradicts your opinion. If you pick and choose the evidence that supports your bias and ignore opposing evidence, then it will be difficult to arrive at a conclusion. I don’t know how you could progress with such discussions. G-d is not the author of confusion.
3) Jews and Arabs are related to the same father — Abraham.
I see why you separate Abram from Abraham, so that Ishamel and Isaac could be separated, hence Jews and Arabs could be separated. But as I said, the written Torah is more accommodating of Ishmael than Rabbinical writings. Jews and Arabs are cousins. Genetic studies have shown this. For example, in the year 2000, Ariella Oppenheim of Hebrew University in Jerusalem examined the Y-chromosomes of Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardic Jews, Israeli Arabs and Palestinian Arabs. Their DNAs were so similar, she concluded that the men must have had a common paternal ancestor. A similar finding was published more recently in 2020 when looking at the link between Canaanites and present-day Jews and Arabs (Liran Carmel, a computational Biologist at Hebrew University). David Reich, a Geneticist at Harvard University, also stated that Arabs and Jews shared DNA ancestry. From a religious angle, this common ancestor or common father is Abraham. ONE ancestor, ONE father, ONE man…not two different men.
Like my Muslim interlocutor (Mr. S. See above), you too claimed that the only thing common between Jew sand the descendants of Ishmael is the belief in one G-d. Like Badr, you have minimised the importance of shared monotheism. This is the most crucial commonality and the most important one which will form the basis of a future, permanent peace.
4) High status of Hagar and Ishmael in the Written Torah.
You say that Arabs are not on a good path. You also said that Ishmael was driven away from Abraham by Sarah and is not a part of history and outside of HaShem’s project.
Again, this may be the view in the Rabbinical writings, but not the written Torah. I did listen to Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi’s talk about the fall of Ishmael/Arabs when discussing the Parashat Toldot. He also quoted from the Zohar where he said that the children of Ishmael would be worse than the Nazis in trying to destroy the Jewish nation and that the Moshiach is the only person who would drive out the Arabs and free the Holy Land for the Jews. These interpretations are at variance to what is written in the Torah. Genesis is very clear that Ishmael was named by G-d because He heard the cry of Hagar. But Rabbi Mizrachi quoted from one of the Rabbinical writings (possibly the Parashat Toldot) that the reason why G-d named the boy Ishma-El (G-d hears) was that He heard the cries of Israel who complained many times about Ishmael. The Bereishit Rabbah (53:11) and Shemot Rabbah (1:1) state that Ishmael was an idolator and violated married women. If someone is biased against Ishmael, then this is what they will believe even though the written Torah does not mention these negative qualities about Ishmael, who was named by G-d directly based on Hagar’s cry. Furthermore, Hagar was a princess from Egypt who became a maidservant to Abraham’s household. She is one of the very few women in the Torah and Tanakh who spoke to G-d directly through an angel. These are noble qualities. So, to push them to second status and out of history is not warranted.
Although Genesis does state that Ishmael will be wild like a donkey and his hand will be against everyone else, this is as far as it goes if one wants to draw a negative characteristic about Ishmael and Arabs. Hence Rabbi Mizrachi uses this example to show why Arabs are always at war with Jews. A neutral interpretation I have come across is that Ishmael got used to living in the wild with nature. So, one can interpret that part of Genesis in different ways.
Arabs and Muslims do adopt names of Jewish prophets and Jewish women of G-d, it would therefore be impossible for Muslims or Arabs to hate Jews. Yes, anti-Semitism does exist within the Muslim and Arab world and needs to be quashed by reminding ourselves that we are descendants of Abraham physically (Jews and Arabs) and spiritually (Jews, Christians and Muslims). In fact, racism is pure evil regardless of our ancestry.
However, there is another positive point of Ishmael. In the first/second century AD, Rabbi Ishmael Ben Elisha was an expert on the Mishnah and developed the 13 rules of interpretation of the Torah, he was also an expert on the Midrash and Aggadah. Rabbi Ishmael would not have been named as such if Ishmael (the son of Abraham) was a wicked idolator and sexually immoral who was cursed by HaShem. Ishmael and Hagar are people of G-d, and HaShem promised that he would bless Ishmael’s descendants and make them a great nation. HaShem would never bless a nation and make it great if it was evil.
It is ironic how earlier Rabbinical writings in general tend to state and even prophesise negative things about Ishmael and his descendants (Arabs) in relation to Jews and Israel, but have failed to prophesise the good times when Arabs and Muslims at the height of their military might and scientific achievements (during medieval Europe) had good relations with Jews, and even accommodated them when they were persecuted by Christian crusaders. The Golden Age of Jews (other than when they had the land of Israel) was during the same period as the Golden Age of the Arabs/Muslims. It was in this environment of tolerance that Rambam (Rabbi Moses Ben Maimon) was able to thrive and became a profound scholar on the Talmud, Halacha and also became a personal physician to a great Muslim leader, Saladin. He changed the face of Judaism, developed the 13 rules of Judaism (and 613 mitzvots), and his teachings influence Jews to this day. The descendants of Ishmael had good relations with Jews for a longer period (hundreds of years) than bad relations (74 years, since 1948). Yet, for some reason, the Talmud, Midrash, Mishnah, Zohar etc. could not predict the good times with the children of Ishmael, only the bad times. I could be wrong as I have not read all of the Rabbinical literature.
5) Reconciliation between Ishmael and Isaac through Esau
You dismissed Esau’s marriage to Ishamel’s daughter (Basemath/Mahalath) by equating Esau with Christians and Ishmael with Muslims, and they were both against Isaac and Jacob. ‘Esau=Christians’ is irrelevant. Esau was a son of Isaac, and he married his cousin, the daughter of Ishmael. If Isaac and Ishmael were enemies, then both Isaac and Ishmael would not have allowed the marriage to take place. This shows there was reconciliation from a Biblical perspective. It does not mean that Ishmael was chosen, I was not trying to prove that at all. The point that cannot be denied is that there was no division between Isaac and Ishmael in the way you see it. Furthermore, the idea of reconciliation between them through Esau’s marriage to Basemath is a Jewish opinion, although it may not be popular amongst other Jews who have an anti-Ishmael bias. Professor Rabbi Reuvan Firestone wrote an article in Torah.com about this reconciliation through Esau’s marriage to Ishmael’s daughter.
Also, it is interesting that Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi said that when the Moshiach (may G-d hasten is arrival) arrives he will expel the Arabs, and the land will be for the Jews only. Whilst we also believe in the Moshiach, our understanding is slightly different. We believe that he did come already as Yehshua/Isa, and we are waiting for his second coming. This is a discussion for another time. But for the purpose of our dialogue, it doesn’t matter who the Moshiach is, he is coming soon. Jews, Christians and Muslims can agree on this. But when the Moshiach comes, he will unite Jews, Christians and Muslims, not separate them.
6) Ishmael not in Biblical History — Correct
You mentioned that Hagar and Ishmael were sent away to be separate from Abraham because G-d had a plan for Isaac as His covenant was with him and his descendants. The Torah mentions Hagar and Ishmael being in the wilderness (and Abraham made a couple of visits), you then correctly state that the next time the Torah mentions about Ishmael is when he and Isaac both buried their father, Abraham. Thus, Ishmael has no history and is outside of G-d’s project.
It is obvious why Ishmael has no history during the time when the Tanakh was written. That was the period when the line of prophethood was through the descendants of Isaac who brought the Torah, Nevim and Ketuvim. G-d’s covenant was with Isaac and prophethood continued through his descendants (although in the Islamic belief, ALL nations received prophets. In Jewish thought Bilaam was a Gentile prophet). The Torah is very clear that G-d heard Abraham’s request and HaSem promised him (in Genesis 17) that Ishmael’s nation would be blessed, would be large in number and would be a great nation. So, Ishmael’s nation WAS part of G-d’s project, but for the future. That is why Ishmael’s nation has no history in the Tanakh. G-d did fulfil one of His promises, that the descendants of Ishmael will be in great numbers. In your understanding, how did G-d fulfil His other promises of blessing Ishmael’s nation and making it great?
7) First place, second place and chosen people — missing the point completely.
During both of your responses, you have made great effort to separate the status of Isaac and Ishmael by positioning Isaac as first place and Ishmael second place who is under Isaac, hence, outside G-d’s project. Rabbinical writings would also seem to support this idea and have generally negative views about Ishmael. We should make the effort to find commonalties between the children of Abraham rather than competition. It is true that Isaac did have a covenant with G-d and that the Jewish nation was also a great nation that was chosen. Chosen for what? Chosen to convey the message of HaShem. The focus should not be on who is first and second or who is chosen, it should be on what does G-d require us to do? This is the crucial point. By getting too deep into debate about first place, second place and who is chosen, it is easy to miss the main purpose of life; which is to follow G-d’s will and convey His message.
The Torah did state that the Jewish nation (which is very small in number) would be spread out across the nations, and it has been thinly spread out across the world. So, what has been the outcome? Has HaShem’s message been conveyed to the Gentiles in these nations? What effort has been made to invite the Gentiles to Judaism so that they can follow the 613 mitzvots (which is based on Rambam’s list), to observe Shabbat and attend shul to praise Shaddai? There are nearly 8 billion people in the world, 99% are Gentiles. How many of them have heard of the 7 laws of Noah? If conversion to Judaism is difficult because of the 613 mitzvots they have to follow, then the next best thing for the Gentiles to follow are the 7 laws of Noah. According to the Rabbinical understanding this is enough for the righteous Gentiles to go to Heaven. So, why is it that most of the Gentiles are not aware of the 7 laws of Noah and have not been invited to follow them? This is the crux of the matter when discussing first place second place and the chosen people. Are the chosen people doing what they are supposed to?
Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi did correctly point out a few years ago that Israel has invented many technologies that have benefited Mankind, but that the surrounding Arab nations have not invented anything and have lost all the wars against Israel. Thus, he implies that G-d is on the side of Israel. He describes the present situation correctly. But he misses the fact that the Arabs were at the forefront of science, mathematics and medicine hundreds of years ago during their Golden Age, which triggered the European renaissance. Whilst it is great that Israel has been at the forefront of developing technologies which have become part of our lives (including part of the lives of those who wish to destroy Israel) and has a formidable intelligence service, what is more important than these marvellous inventions and institutions, is the blessed HaShem. The Shema is the first and foremost thing that should have been coming out of the Holy Land before microchip and email technologies. And this goes back to the point I made above. Now that G-d has favoured Israel, what is being done to convey G-d’s message from the Holy Land? Whilst the Arabs today may be behind in technological development (although they are formidable businessmen), at least one of the Ishmaelite kingdoms, Saudi Arabia (the land of the Prophet) has used some of its oil money to convey the message of G-d through distributions of the Quran around the world and inviting people to believe in one G-d and follow his laws. I hope Rabbi Mizrachi gives this Arab nation of Ishmael some credit.
In contrast, I have come across Rabbi Tovia Singer, who was based in the Muslim country of Indonesia and has recently moved to Jerusalem. He has engaged in positive discussions with Muslims and seems to be more favourable to Mohammad and the Quran compared to Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi. Singer is the only Rabbi I have come across that has an ‘Outreach Judaism’ project. However, his outreach in Indonesia was focused on bringing converted Jewish Christians back to Judaism. I don’t think the outreach has extended to Gentiles. Why isn’t such outreach happening?
Because of the huge responsibility that G-d has placed on the Jewish nation and elevated its status as the chosen people, the Torah warns this nation of punishment if they do not follow G-d’s ways. The Parashat Bechukotai talks about the punishments that G-d would give if His laws are not followed. This should be at the centre of our thoughts. We should re-direct our attention away from ‘who is chosen, who is first/second’ to ‘are we following G-d’s laws and inviting others to follow them?’ The same principle applies to my community of Muslims. Many think that they are ‘chosen’ by Allah/HaShem, but He has also warned us of punishment if we do not follow His laws.
The main point of this section is that we should have the humility to redirect our attention away from ourselves as ‘chosen’ to understanding what G-d wants from us.
8) Prophet Muhammad Alone?
You indicated that the Prophet Muhammad was ‘alone’ and in contrast there were millions of people who received the Torah. This is a meaningless statement. All prophets were alone when faced with their enemies, but in fact we know they were not really alone because HaShem and the angels were with them. Hence, NO PROPHET IS ALONE. G-d chooses prophets as He wills.
9) Forcing people to convert — Wrong
You indicated that Muslims forcefully convert people, that Abraham did not force, he only spoke. Muslims are not allowed to force people to convert, this is a major sin. We can only convey the message. This is exactly what the chosen people of G-d were supposed to do. Where is the message of HaShem, Shema, Torah etc. that is supposed to be coming out of Israel and the Jewish communities? (See point 7 above).
10) Condemning Extremism on both sides
One of the responders to my earlier comment stated that there are only a few Jewish extremists, so they don’t really cause problems. However, a small number of extremists can cause a lot of damage. On 29th May 2022, extremist Jewish groups, La Familia and Lehava, marched through the Muslim Quarter in Jerusalem to celebrate Yom Yerushalayim (Jerusalem Day). There were shouts of ‘Death to Arabs’ and ‘Your village should burn.’ Hats off to the Israeli Defence Minister, Benny Gantz, who will classify these two groups as terrorist groups. The Israeli Foreign Minister, Yair Lapid, and Public Security Minister, Omer Barlev also condemned these groups. Furthermore, according to the Times of Israel (29th May 2022), the Haredic Orthodox Rabbi, Gershon Edelstein of the HaTorah group, said that the parade is dangerous and unnecessary. I hope you agree with these Israeli officials and condemn these Jewish extremists? Muslim extremism (e.g. Hamas) should also be condemned by Muslims.
Given your stance on Ishmael being second place under Isaac and out of history, and that the Arabs are on the wrong path, do you believe that Israeli Arab Muslims and Christians (which account for 20% of the Israeli population) should be expelled from Israel? You mentioned earlier that many Israeli Arabs rioted when there was a war in Gaza between the IDF and Hamas in 2021. However, the riots by Israeli Arabs were few in number, most Israeli Arabs are proud to be Israelis. One such proud Israeli Christian Arab is Yoseph Haddad (whose post has triggered our dialogue), and you have seen how he strongly defends Israel on Linkedin and other social media outlets, and presents interesting insights that are not seen in the world media. Should he be expelled? I ask this because of your negative views about Arabs. If you believe that all Israeli Arabs should be expelled from Israel, then how are you different from the Muslim terrorist group, HAMAS, who want to expel all Jews from the Holy Land?
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Response from Mr. A (Israeli Jew) — 17th November 2022
First it was a pleasure to read you. Second, I have only quoted the parts with which I disagree. I tried to be precise as possible, and sorry if I was not polite. Long reply but interesting I hope.
1) “Wailing Wall”
A little history, Jewish people does not use this term. So, for us this is the western wall from the Temple, and nothing about complaining and crying like a “wailing wall”. Our enemies did that so they thought we will only complain and not come back, thanks to G-d, this is not the case. The present answered this wrong idea…
2) “Restore Solomon’s Temple.”
No David, No Solomon and nobody else. Just because if you restore, you will bring back the same.
And it not supposed to be the same. Not the same period, not the same people, not the same King…
So ‘’restore’’ is not the best word.
3) “That because Ishmael’s circumcision was incomplete”
If I spoke about incomplete, I am speaking in front of Isaac, not in front of himself. For him, this is perfect, G-d’s project.
4) “This understanding is obviously from old Rabbinical writings, but the written Torah is more accommodating of Ishmael than the Rabbinical writings are.”
No writings, oral transmission, from master to pupil. For the Jewish people, Israel people, speaking is higher than writing. Israel people are not the book’s people. The oral transmission is more important than the writing. The proof is written before the most important event, when receiving the Tora, G-d came to Moses, and said to him that the event’s purpose at the Mount Sinai, when they received the 10 lyrics and the Torah, is to insert trust and faith in Israel for Moses. (Exodus 19,9)
For Israel, it was difficult to follow someone that gone during 80 years and after this he wants to leave Egypt and save the people. About “Torah is more accommodating’’… פרא אדם is not the best term and notion you can give to someone, Ishmael is dangerous, and the history answered well to this “quality.”
5) “There is nothing mystical about this’’
Mystical is difficult to define for each of us according to what we believe and to our spirituality’s levels. So I will stay on the Torah, on the oral transmission for 2000 years I have. This is the situation, before the circumcision, he can speak, but no meeting. You can read the 17th chapter in Genesis and see that when G-d meet, higher that speaking, Abram, not Abraham, he is falling on his face. G-d cannot wait, so he will not wait more to give him another letter and change his name. Like nowadays, people are changing their names to begin another life, when they want to begin from 0. And after this, you want them to save the link with the past. Of course, we are linked, but not the same link, level, you spoke.
6) “His wife, Zipporah, was married to the same man before and after Moses became a prophet, after speaking to G-d through a burning bush.”
This event is beyond any limit, any kind, any thoughts, beyond anything…but for you, you are thinking this not changing a man. Sorry, nothing to add here, this is beyond the logic and the brain, to think meeting G-d will not change a man.
7) “So, this Rabbi of the Rishonim states very clearly that Abraham was one and the same person before and after circumcision.”
Sorry, I read few times the quote, I do not see this position, this way. Maybe you can specify the words in his words. Thank you.
8) “G-d is not the author of confusion”
The lack of transmission is the origin of the confusion. Sorry, you can take text from my Rabbis and you can understand something in a wrong way easily. Only someone with transmission can understand. The transmission is the key to everything.
9) “I don’t know how you could progress with such discussions.”
Me too, because you are quoting someone without bringing quote from the first source, the Torah. Like you are speaking about United-States without speaking about Native Americans, called by mistake Indians. Always go back to the source…and the source is the person who get the transmission. Bring me someone who is the descendant of this Rishon, Tur HaArokh and I will learn from him. I cannot trust anyone else. This is oral law. This is transmission.
10) “Torah is more accommodating of Ishmael”
More accommodating? So telling to somebody to go away is “accommodating?” Just to remember when someone is throwing you away in the past, without a tribe to protect you, without a path to live and clear purpose in life, and you need to build everything from the beginning, I do not see it “accommodating”, and this is not a wedding that will fix everything…
11) “ONE ancestor, ONE father, ONE man…not two different men.”
Only with a biological argument? We, humankind, share 99% of our DNA with chimpanzees, and the difference is as big as a brain (we have more neurons than stars in the galaxy, so I said brain instead of galaxy). Sorry, that’s not a good argument.
12) “You have minimized the importance of shared monotheism”
First, I did not do it. “I meant the only big thing that give something to share is to believe in one G-d.” These are my words. I do not see anything here to minimize it. And even if somebody can read it like that, it is half on purpose. Voluntarily. Because, when we share something, people, from both sides, are thinking we can share everything. So to prevent a big mistake, I minimized it. Like I can minimize the case that every time Jews from Morocco said that there were no pogroms and killings because the Morocco’s King protected the Jews. No matters. This is not the case. Secondly, I am not sure this is a shared monotheism because the people of Israel do not follow a religion.
13) “Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi’’
I know him. He is famous, but he is dangerous. Most of the time, it is going together. Not only my point of view. And his point of view is against the life in many lessons I heard. So, the advice from lot of Rabbi in America and Israel, don’t follow him.
14) “Again, this may be the view in the Rabbinical writings, but not the written Torah.”
How can you explain that when you read the Bible there is no more reference to Ishmael. The torah is the G-d’s speech. He did not speak about Ishmael like Isaac and his descendants? And suddenly after hundreds of years, G-d is back to the prophet Muhammad? And he picked another book? And nothing to speak with the people of Israel why? Where? What? Sorry, I don’t get it the update.
15) “So, to push them to second status and out of history is not warranted”
I don’t need to do it myself, they did it to themselves. Sorry to be maybe rude, but nothing to be proud of for the Muslim world. Half of the countries are at war. Half of the countries knew a revolution and are not stable at all.
16) “That we are descendants of Abraham physically”
No again. Arabs/Muslims are from Abram and people of Israel from Abraham. Simply read the Bible…
17) “Rabbi Ishmael would not have been named as such if”
From the worst thing, you can always find a way to fix it and come back to the good way. And your explanation is nice but not based on any source, so can be wrong. A name brings with him a lot of history and values but this is not mandatory until you speak about destiny. Like Jesus, his first name was Joshua, and lot of people in Israel was named like him even if he is the “best” enemy the people of Israel knew and suffer because of him until today.
18) “HaShem would never bless a nation and make it great if it was evil.”
Your father is punishing you for a wrong thing you did and, for your future, you can learn a lesson from it. The punishment, evil or not? The punishment is not evil, the evil itself is not evil in the G-d’s project, but because of this we need to embrace it? G-d is transcendental, all the logic we have here is not applicable to him. He has his plan and to understand it, a oral transmission is mandatory. You cannot build your knowledge on a library/books. During the history, how many times we saw great people, teachers, philosophers, attorney, speaking about the path to follow and they decided to do something else? A Rabbi can write “this is black” even this is white. People will understand from it, this is black, but all the family and great students around him and living around him all the day along heard from him he wrote this just for the people to calm them down because white is dangerous for them. This is the same thing for everything, you cannot only “read” and quote it. This is more complicated than most of the people read and understand it. And we call this the life.
19) “The Golden Age of Jews (other than when they had the land of Israel)”
There is no golden age for Jews outside Israel, and even some Rabbis wrote else, this is just to bring hope to the people, like they called other nations “gentile.”
20) “It was in this environment of tolerance that Rambam (Rabbi Moses Ben Maimon) was able to thrive and became a profound scholar on the Talmud”
And the Rambam didn’t give his 100%/ Why? Because his brother was supposed to give him money, so he did need to work. But he had to work. Just a little notice, not influencing the discussion.
21) “If Isaac and Ishmael were enemies”
Again, like point 16. Isaac is the Rabbi, the reconciliation between them is not the subject. Proof? Not a big deal in the Bible. We don’t hear from the next generation after this.
22) “The idea of reconciliation”
For their generation, for themselves. Today, this is another story. They did a reconciliation but nothing to do with people of Israel. Conclusion? Jews need to take distance from both, Essau and Ishmael.
23) “But when the Moshiach comes, he will unite Jews, Christians and Muslims, not separate them.”
Your point of view. Not the same for the people of Israel.
24) “So, Ishmael’s nation WAS part of G-d’s project, but for the future”
Nothing is disturbing your logic here? “was” and “future” in the same sentence? So like they are on the sidelines and we bring them back. Sorry, the G-d project has no “pause.” Ishmael is always in G-d’s project but not in front when the land of Israel is back.
25) “In your understanding, how did G-d fulfil His other promises of blessing Ishmael’s nation and making it great?”
Great nation? Genesis 16,12, this is the definition of great? You had your golden age of course, when people of Israel are outside Israel, also the G-d project is by default going to another nation, to protect it. After almost 2000 years, we came back, we built in 74 years what the Arab world did not succeed to save and build. Today, the number of books coming out from the Muslim world, and books translated into different Arabic languages are too low. Sorry, knowledge is no more your strong point, not getting outside, and even not getting inside. Not giving, and not receiving. Mathematics? Physics?
Astronomy? Sorry, only money, wars, revolution. I don’t hear any thinking in the Muslim world about searching get back to the golden age. Do you want to speak about Nobel Prizes? Better not to.
26) “First place, second place and chosen people — missing the point completely.”
It seems you too.
27) “Rabbinical writings would also seem to support this idea and have generally negative views about Ishmael.”
Before Rabbinical writings, the Tora is supporting this, not an idea, but a reality. You can close your eyes and read only few lines on Ishmael and show this as important as you want, but then there is nothing.
28) “We should make the effort to find commonalties between the children of Abraham rather than competition.”
I don’t see in first place and second place competition, I see order and law. The order and law bring us society, so we can live together, when someone is not taking his place, and working in another place, the game, the life, the society will die…slowly. Now, 74 years ago, people of Israel came back on the international scene, we speak and spread the G-d project slowly. Undercover during 2000 years, now freely.
29) “Has HaShem’s message been conveyed to the Gentiles in these nations?”
It was not the project. We did not succeed to do it from inside Israel, so we had to test it from outside.
Now we saw also it is not working. We came back with a stronger mind. And you can see this stronger mind what it did since 1967…
30) “How many of them have heard of the 7 laws of Noah?” … “Are the chosen people doing what they are supposed to?”
https://noahideworldcenter.org/. The people of Israel are working on it. But it is taking time, and for the people of eternity, thousand of years is nothing.
31) “..Has a formidable intelligence service, what is more important than these marvelous inventions and institutions, is the blessed Hashem.”
More important? I am not sure about this. Through all the help people of Israel brings to the mankind, we also spread the G-d’s project.
32) “Now that G-d has favored Israel, what is being done to convey G-d’s message from the Holy Land?”
The way we think is that we need to be ready inside and stable before convey the message outside. And we are close to it. When the brothers of Yossef did not want to go back to Egypt, Yossef was ready to do it. It was the same case, Yossef wanted to convey the message from outside Israel and the brothers from inside. So can you convey the message if you are not stable yourself? I think the history gave us the answer, we tried during almost 2000 years, and many Rabbi were close to lot of Kings and Kingdoms, but they chose another path after, and we did not succeed to convey the message completely. So the time came 74 years ago to convey from inside, but from inside you need to be more stable and clear with yourself about your role. And we are not clear, we should explain to the Arabs in Israel our role and not let them stop us.
33) “He has engaged in positive discussions with Muslims and seems to be more favourable to Mohammad and the Quran compared to Rabbi Yosef Mizrachi”
He is Indonesia, you want him to commit suicide? Like I said, Rabbis outside Israel are not the mainstream and cannot be the mainstream. Even the Talmud from Babel, from outside Israel, stated that a Rabbi from Israel is equal to 2 Rabbis from outside Israel, you can read all Ketoubot from the Talmud of Babel and you will see the difference.
34) “We should re-direct our attention away from ‘who is chosen, who is first/second’ to ‘are we following G-d’s laws and inviting others to follow them?’
Don’t worry. There are enough Rabbis in Israel and they are taking care of the G-d’s project. First we need to be stable inside, so nothing can disturb us.
35) “You indicated that the Prophet Muhammad was ‘alone’ and in contrast there were millions of people who received the Torah. This is a meaningless statement.”
https://youtu.be/PEg_Oys4NkA. Long, but enough to explain.
36) “All prophets were alone when faced with their enemies”
I am not speaking about the enemies. I am speaking about the G-d’s project. The people of Israel were present when Moses received the Torah, only because they were dying every word from G-d, so he climbed up alone after. And even after this, they asked many times about the G-d’s project and G-d did some miracles to show them the path.
37) “Muslims are not allowed to force people to convert”
I don’t care if it is allowed or forbidden, this was the case. Today, I don’t think anymore, but I still here and there Muslims trying to convert.
38) “I hope you agree with these Israeli officials and condemn these Jewish extremists?”
I tried to learn about this case. But sorry not enough proof to condemn. Why? Because I will not condemn until I did not get the testimony from both sides.
39) “Do you believe that Israeli Arab Muslims and Christians (which account for 20% of the Israeli population) should be expelled from Israel?”
If they don’t follow the law, of course. I don’t speak about tomorrow. Someone dangerous for others need to be prosecuted by the law, and if the situation will not improve, exile can be the solution. The prisons are full, if after few years he does not want to follow the good path, he can live elsewhere…
40) “I ask this because of your negative views about Arabs”
I have an opinion based on reality. Negative or positive are subjective notions. The fact matters. And the reality is the Hamas is not good at all for Gaza and for the world. Many countries did their revolution and gain freedom, maybe it is time for them to do it instead of complaining? The people of Israel succeed in 74 years to build his country. Why lot of resources of Gaza are used to fight us instead of building? If you were really ready and clever to fight, so build your economy to have a big income, and you can buy enough weapons to start a war. Instead of this, they are begging the world to help them? And the world throws billions to the Hamas? Secondly, my opinion is focused on the subject and I don’t have any negative views on all Arabs worldwide. I always spoke about the Middle East and more specifically about the Arabs in Israel.
I hope it was clear and interesting. Have a good weekend.
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Hasan’s response pending…
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Disclaimer: The views expressed are mine only and do not belong to the company I work for or the political party I belong to.
Author Biography
Hasan Ali Imam was born in Bangladesh in 1972 and brought up in the UK. He has engaged in respectful debate and dialogue with those which disagree with him, which culminated in his candidacy for the British Parliament in 2005. He continues to be involved with the UK Conservative Party in his spare time whilst working for a multinational corporation. Hasan has also been involved with the UK Government’s PREVENT counter terrorism strategy as a trainer to public servants on how to prevent young people from venturing into extremism. He also draws on his own experience of attempted recruitment by extremist groups in the 1990s. Hasan has authored three books.
Firstly, ‘United States of Anger — Why Linda Sarsour’s Rage and Far Left Violence Cannot Move Mountains.’ This book is a response to Linda Sarsour (an American Palestinian Socialist activist), and her far left compatriots who supported the violence and rampage that took hold in the US after the tragic killing of George Floyd.
Secondly, ‘BAME — Breaking Through Barriers.’ This book deals with the race space in the UK. It responds to critics who state that ethnic minorities have not progressed due to institutional racism. He tackles the issue head on and invites critics to dialogue and debate. This book was praised by the British Government.
Thirdly, ‘Aisha and Fatima — Ladies of Heavan. A Sunni Response to Shiaism.’ This is specific to the main Islamic sects of Sunni and Shia. The book captures dialogues that Hasan (a Sunni) had with Shia Muslims over the last 20 years.
A fourth book project is under way for publication in 2023, entitled, ‘Why the Far Right are Far Wrong.’ Yes, you guessed it. It includes responses to the Far Right and dialogue with some of its members.
Hasan has also written an article on ‘Medium.com’ to challenge the anti-vaccine narrative from his own Conservative side, including Dr. Simone Gold in the US, and has invited dialogue and debate with anti-vaxxers. He has also engaged in dialogue with and Israeli Jew and an anti-Israeli Muslim on the State of Israel and the importance of Jews, Christians and Muslims to unite under the Abrahamic brotherhood.
